Comparing the Workers Party (PT) today and ten years
ago, would you say that the PT is gaining or losing
strength in Brazil?
I would say that the PT is gaining strength. If you
analyze the election results, the PT has grown
after each election since its founding in 1980. In
the 1996 elections, the PT was the most-voted party
in Brazil’s 100 largest cities. In seven cities we com-
peted in the second round and lost because everybody
united against us. Obviously, there is a substantial dif-
ference if you compare the PT ten years ago and
today. Ten years ago, the PT was more present, more
active in the social struggle. In 1997, the party is
more present in the political struggle. Now, we have
to combine the two things, the social struggle and the
political struggle.
There was a strong relationship between the PT and the
labor movement when the PT was founded 17 years ago.
How would you describe this relationship today?
The relationship is not as strong as it was in the begin-
ning. The PT was born from the labor movement, from
the strikes of 1978, 1979 and 1980. Then there was a
strong linkage. As the party grew, it opened itself to
other social segments. The labor movement is no longer
the only one. There are other social segments and the
labor movement no longer has the same influence that it
had at the beginning. But it continues to have a privi-
leged and I would say priority linkage with the PT.
Does the government of President Fernando Henrique
Cardoso, which combines neoliberal policies and
reformist initiatives, help or hinder the growth of the PT?
The government of President Cardoso has helped the
PT formulate better policies and better proposals. I con-
fess that the Cardoso government has been the most dif-
ficult government to confront. First, we had to confront
an authoritarian military regime that was opposed by
everyone. After that, we confronted the government of
President Sarney, that was opposed by everyone. Next
we confronted Collor, who was also opposed by every-
one. Now we are confronting Fernando Henrique
Cardoso, who was able to gain a great deal of support in
the university, to divide the intellectual base of our party,
and who has a positive image due to his political history.
He demands more competence in the art of being an
opposition movement and in the art of formulating alter-
native proposals for the country to show clearly the dif-
ference between our policies and his neoliberal policies.
At first, we had difficulty because the president built a
powerful coalition in the political arena. Now the party
is agreeing that the political struggle by itself does not
solve the problem. The social struggle is also necessary.
During the governments of Presidents Sarney and Collor,
the press portrayed the PT as a progressive party. During
the government of President Cardoso, the press has
painted the PT as a conservative party, a party with old
ideas. What is happening?
What is happening is that Cardoso is achieving a cer-
tain hegemony around neoliberal ideology. Today you
cannot find a single newspaper in Brazil that opposes the
neoliberal policies, only a few journalists. There is a
general agreement with neoliberal policies-the open-
ing of borders, the privatization of all companies, the
reduction of the role of the state. This doctrine predom-
inates today in the media and those against it do not
have spaces. Cardoso, who came from the left, was
drawn to the neoliberal project, and was able to make an
alliance with the conservatives. What conservatives
attempted unsuccessfully, Cardoso is achieving through
this hegemony. By the way, I have never seen the
Brazilian press as subservient as it is today.
Since the PT was founded, it, along with the labor move-
ment, has led the progressive movement in Brazil. Is this
situation changing with the emergence of the Landless
People’s Movement (MST)?
The struggle of the Brazilian people is cyclical. There
was a time when the unions were the most important
actors in the process of redemocratization. We even built
the largest labor confederation in Latin America, the
Central Federation of Workers (CUT). Today it is the
MST. When we obtain agrarian reform, it will no longer
be the MST. It may be the homeless people’s movement,
17VOICES ON THE LEFT
the human rights movement, or another. The PT has
always been in favor of agrarian reform. Landless peo-
ple are concerned specifically with agrarian reform and
our role is not to compete, but to show solidarity with
the struggles of the MST. Tomorrow, if a homeless peo-
ple’s movement emerges, our role will be to demonstrate
our solidarity with them. If afterwards a movement
against forced labor emerges, the PT should not want to
be the vanguard of the movement. We will show our sol-
idarity with the struggle if it is just and improves the
quality of life of the Brazilian people.
Are there many ties between the
landless people and the PT? How is
this relationship?
Yes, there are many ties. I would
say that 85% or 90% of the persons We were participating in the landless move-
ment are sympathetic to the mobilized Worker’s Party, but the movement is
autonomous. ago tha
What are the main objectives of the today. It’ PT in the short and in the long term?
that th The PT’s main long-term objec-
tive is to build another model of space in society in which the people receive
a fair share of the fruits of their struggle;
work. The objective in the short run struggle nc is to prevent the government of
President Cardoso from destroying the stren Brazil as a nation. We want to prove
that Brazil can participate in the bef
global economy without submis-
sion. We want to prove that it is pos-
sible to formulate an industrial pol-
icy, an agricultural policy, a health
policy, an education policy-poli-
cies that are different from the existing ones. This must
be accomplished soon, because the people cannot wait a
long time. We need policies that can result in more jobs
for the Brazilian people.
The main difficulty is that the PT did not win the pres-
idential election in 1994. We will not stop because we
did not win. We have to pressure the Brazilian govern-
ment to ensure that it fulfills some of the promises it
made during the campaign, even if it doesn’t do all the
things we would like.
You said that the party has become more open and
enjoys the participation of different social groups and
movements other than the labor movement. How mobi-
lized are these groups and movements compared to a
decade ago?
‘n
n
s
t
t
9. gi
We were much more mobilized then than we are
today. I would say that in the beginning we were con-
stantly mobilized. We were more mobilized because the
social movements were also more mobilized than they
are today. It is important to remember that there is a dif-
ference between the world in which the PT was born and
the world today. In the world in which the PT was born,
Cardoso was on the left. Today, he is not. Brazilian soci-
ety remains the same, but Brazilian politics is different.
The progressive church, for example, does not have the
strength that it had in the 1980s. The struggle against
the military regime, which unified
everyone, no longer exists. The pop-
ular movement no longer has the
same strength. It is not only that the
PT has lost ground in the social
uch more struggle, but that the social struggle no longer has the strength that it once
ten years had. The PT has to resume that social
struggle.
we are We are planning to start a campaign
not just against unemployment. The objec- tive of this campaign is not only to
PT lost critique the neoliberal policies which
cause unemployment, along with the
ie social globalization of the world economy,
but above all to present proposals to he social create jobs.
longer has Is the PT well connected with pro- gressive groups and parties in Latin th it had America?
re. Yes, we are. We created the Sdo
Paulo Forum, which brings together
the Latin American left. We will hold
our sixth meeting soon in Porto
Alegre. The CUT and the labor
movements in Argentina, Uruguay
and Paraguay are unified and have concrete proposals
for Mercosur. In Brazil, we are now forming a bloc in
the National Congress, to act jointly in the Chamber of
Deputies and in the Senate. Thus, we are taking impor-
tant steps towards unifying of the left.
Do you think the PT can win the next presidential elec-
tion?
I don’t think anyone is unbeatable in elections. I
seemed unbeatable in 1994 and I did not win the elec-
tion. Cardoso in 1998, in my opinion, will be much
more vulnerable than he is now and than he was in 1994.
It is hard to know what will happen in 1998. If there are
many conservative candidates, the PT’s chances
increase. If the conservatives are united around one can-
didate, as they were in 1994, it will be more difficult. It
NACIA REPORT ON THE AMERICASVOICES ON THE LEFT
is hard to say. But I can guarantee that the PT will have
a candidate and I think that the PT can be competitive
against the other parties.
The PT as you say, has to combine efforts to win the elec-
toral and party struggle and efforts to organize society.
Where is the PT concentrating its efforts, in the electoral
and party struggle or in the organization of society and
the formulation of an alternative project?
Unfortunately, in the electoral struggle the PT has a
serious problem. It has to compete in general elections
and when there are no general elections, there are party
elections. You cannot organize the
people one year because you are
thinking about the general elections
and in another year because you are In B
thinking about the party elections.
We have to solve this problem. I left candidates
the National Executive Commission
food to
because I want to be free to work on
the organization of society. This is This is
the only thing that can guarantee not
only the conquest of the government problemati
but also the exercise of government of the le power by a party like the PT.
You left the presidency of the PT and
created the Citizenship Institute last
year This change, as you said, makes
clear your position regarding the
importance of organizing society and
the formulation of alternative poli-
cies. Isn’t it also an expression of dis-
enchantment with the electoral and
party struggle?
Workers F
strug!
an ideal,
and pro!
not o
to come to power, but it must do so without abandoning
its identity and its principles.
Is the PT closer to this objective, or in better condition to
achieve this objective, than other parties of the left in
Latin America?
The PT is the biggest party of the left in Latin
America. But conditions are different in each country
and our dream may happen in another country and not
in Brazil. In El Salvador the left had a great victory. The
Broad Front in Uruguay is a respectable political force.
In Argentina, the opposition won 30% of the votes. Each
country has a history, but the PT has
a great chance of not only making
alliances but also of winning gov-
azil, ernment power.
still hand out
win votes.
obviously
ic for a party
ft like the
Sarty, which
gles for
a principle
gram, and
inly for
power.
No, on the contrary. I was very
successful in this struggle. The PT
was born in this struggle. Every year
since 1982, the PT has grown. I competed in two elec-
tions for the presidency of the republic with a good
chance of winning. There is no disenchantment. I am
trying to show that it is possible to make politics with-
out an electoral mandate and a party apparatus, and that
it is possible to establish a direct connection with soci-
ety. I am trying to show that it is possible for anyone to
work for the things in which he or she believes without
being in political office.
The main objective of the progressive sectors must be
to conquer government power because only in govern-
ment can one initiate a different political project, define
the nature of the state and who the state will serve, and
change the rules of the game. To achieve this objective, we have to change our view of electoral competition. A
party like the PT has to make political alliances in order
democratic. They
Is the difficulty of making alliances
the main problem that the PT and
the progressive parties have to over-
come in the next few years?
We have to animate the electoral
system in Latin America and above
all in Brazil. The electoral process
is highly subordinated to economic
power. The candidates spend for-
tunes on campaigns. It is absurd. It
is necessary to increase the equality
of opportunity in the electoral sys-
tem. In Brazil, candidates still hand
out food to win votes. This is obvi-
ously problematic for a party of the
left that struggles for an ideal, a
principle and program, and not only
for power. This is one difficulty.
The other difficulty is access to
media. In Brazil and in Latin
America the mass media are not
are at the service of the dominant
class. This means, of course, that the opposition is at a
serious disadvantage, and this obviously complicates
things.
A third difficulty is popular organization. The left can
never dispense with popular organization. It is the most
important thing for a party of the left. The PT neglected
it for some time and now we have to make up for lost
time.
Is the development of new party activists tied to the
question of popular organization?
Yes it is. Political education and the development of
new Workers Party activists is linked to popular orga-
nization. Political education is a priority for a party
like the PT.
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